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pegleg07

what socket would be best for me

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i am bka. I currently use a suction socket with an outer sleave to hold it on. My problam is i am very active at work with a lot of heavy lifting and walking. My limb sweats a lot and the sleave tends to slide down several times in a six hour shift. So if i got a socket with the pin lock do i still need a sleave? Or what would be a good socket to get? i go in to get fitted for a new socket in 13 days. Thank you for any and all imput.

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If you're in a good vac system and like it the way it fits i honestly doubt that you will like how the pin system feels, it's sloppy and less responsive than a good vac system and your leg will feel slugish in the pin compaired to the "now" response you get with the vac. That being said ----

No you do NOT need a sleeve when using a pin system but many people still use one while doing heavy activity because it does help the fit and helps add some responsivness the pin system inherently lacks. You will also have to deal with adding and removing socks though the course of the day to keep a "good" fit on your pin system and this alone is WAY MORE a headache then pulling up your sleeve a few times a day. The longer you are an amputee the less you have to deal with socks but some people will always have issues with volume change and some none at all.

Ossur now has a liner that has "O-Rings" built into the liner and these rings do the sealing and in many cases do not need a sleeve on the top to seal the vac system -- http://www.ossur.com/prosthetics/liners this might be a better thing to first try before switching completely to the pin system.

What sleeve are you using now? , there are 5-6 companis that make sleeves and liners, maybe you could find a sleeve that works better for you

companies that make liners and sleeves

1) Ohio Williow Wood -- http://www.owwco.com/ Sleeve -- http://www.owwco.com/pdf/catalog/B/FlexSleeve.pdf

2) Otto Bock -- http://www.ottobockus.com/ Sleeves -- http://www.ottobockus.com/cps/rde/xchg/ob_...s.xsl/1760.html Liners -- http://www.ottobockus.com/cps/rde/xchg/ob_...s.xsl/1749.html

3) Ossur -- http://www.ossur.com/ Sleeves -- http://www.ossur.com/prosthetics/locksandsleeves Liners -- http://www.ossur.com/prosthetics/liners

4) Alps -- http://www.easyliner.com/ Sleeves and Liners -- http://www.easyliner.com/Prosthetic.aspx

5) ESP -- http://www.wearesp.com/site/index.php Sleeves -- http://www.wearesp.com/site/knee.php Liners -- http://www.wearesp.com/site/liners.php

6) Evolution Liners -- http://www.evolutionliners.com/

7) Silipos -- http://www.silipos.com/home/home.aspx Sleeves -- http://www.silipos.com/002_prod/subcategor...at_name=Sleeves Liners -- http://www.silipos.com/002_prod/subcategor...cat_name=Liners

again just my opinion but I recently switch from the PIN to a good vac and I will NEVER go back to the pin, it's night and day different. -- good luck in what ever you end up doing.

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thanks tigertatt i think i will stay with my suction socket then. Im gonna try the new liner thing. Guess i just assumed that all liners were the same. Well i better get back to work. Thanks again

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Please don't go to the pin system Joe. You'll still have the sweating problem. The difference is you'll have to take the whole leg off to dry the liner and put it back on. My second go in a pin system was the most painful I've ever had. The pin would pull the limb throughout the day until it was a totally different shape at the end as it was in the beginning. I was told I needed to remove and replace a couple of times per day to alleviate this. What a hassle. I'm too busy for all that. The pin system works for many people. I just hate to see someone spend that much money on something that could produce the pain that I went through. So needless.

I used a vacuum system until it would no longer hold a vacuum because the socket was too big. I didn't like the sleeve at first, but I loved the solid feeling the whole system gave me. It was the most comfortable system with few worries.

I'm using the 5-seal liner by Ossur now and like it. It is a good alternative to the pin. Even though the seal is good, I will use a sleeve during periods of high activity. I went with this system by accident. With the 5-seal liner it just happened to fit the socket that was too big for the vacuum system. It has allowed me to wear that socket another year. Saved a little money.

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One of the things that hasn't been addressed here Joe is the perspiration..

As time goes on, most will aclimate to it and start sweating less.. There are also anti-perspiratants that you can use as well.. One of them, in the US is called Certain-Dri. You use it at night, and let the limb dry well.. Eventually, you only have to apply it every few days, or every other day, depending on you..There are some that are prescribed as well by your doctor..

I think the reason that you were in the sleeve is because of working on the barges. You have a job where you need things to stay tight. That's understandable...

Tigertatt gave you some awesome websites to check out..

I know Neal personally, and I have saw the different set ups that he has used... I know he does a lot of standing and walking over the course of the day....

The best that you can do is get yourself informed.. Try to learn as much as you can and ask anytime your not sure or don't understand... Keep asking your leg guy until you are statisfied that you know what you want or need to know..It's tought sometimes to "advise" someone on what is the best system for someone.. For me, the vaccuum system would probably be trashed in a few days on the farm from puncturing it... I wear a pin system, and seem to get along fine in it, riding horses, motorcycles, atv's tractors or anything else....but.... it is all I've ever known....right now, with the change from spring to summer, I am prespiring more than usual, but it is slowing down...

Are you going to be able to attend the conference this year in Atlanta? That is a great place to ask questions and to gain the knowledge needed as an amp....

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Pegleg07, my first few months after my amputation, I walked in a pin lock system and for me it doesn't even come close to a good suction system. After that, I was in the Harmony system for about three years and it's a really good system for the most part. Now I'm wearing the Limb-Logic VS from Ohio Willow Wood. I've been in this system for about 6 months now and so far it's been the best system I've tried so far. The limb-logic doesn't have the added weight of the harmony system. The best feature of this system is you set the vacuum were you want it, and the system keeps you close to your set point throughout the day. Just like the harmony system, the more socks you wear the harder the system has to work to create vacuum. Right now, I start my day off with 2 pads in my liner while wearing 9 plys of socks and the Limb-Logic still works great. It will work better when I get my new socket, but for now this socket will have to do.

http://mailman2.u.washington.edu/pipermail...ust/013641.html

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i am bka. I currently use a suction socket with an outer sleave to hold it on. My problam is i am very active at work with a lot of heavy lifting and walking. My limb sweats a lot and the sleave tends to slide down several times in a six hour shift. So if i got a socket with the pin lock do i still need a sleave? Or what would be a good socket to get? i go in to get fitted for a new socket in 13 days. Thank you for any and all imput.

hello

i use the same system as you and, beginning last summer (after being an amputee for 7 yrs), i , too, experience the sleeve sliding when i work out and walk far, i dont know if the pin system would slip , too, since the part that holds on to ur limb could also slip, keep us updated, i would love to know what happens

good luck

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As for me, I'm in a pin-lock suspension and also wear a sleeve...I wore only the pin at first -- no sleeve -- and it was a very unresponsive, unstable fit. The advantage to the pin, however, is that the leg is likely to stay on, even if not comfortably, in just about any situation. When I added the sleeve to my set-up, I got the stability and responsiveness I wanted and kept the security of the pin-lock as well. I'm curious about vacuum-fit legs, but still having too much volume change, so I'll be sticking with pin-and-sleeve for the time being.

There are so many variables in determining "what works best" for any single amputee! I would suggest talking to your legguy in great detail about the problems you're encountering...there ought to be several different ways of approaching a solution.

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When I did the 5K in Minneapolis I was wearing the pin system. I had to stop 3 times to attempt drying the liner with my wet T-shirt because the whole liner was literally sliding off my leg. I finished, but that was an awful feeling. It is something that would happen with any system requiring a liner. Water breaks the seal between the leg and the liner. My leg has acclimated somewhat to the sweat, but it still produces plenty when I'm really busy.

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I'm curious about vacuum-fit legs, but still having too much volume change, so I'll be sticking with pin-and-sleeve for the time being.

Cheryl, I have found since switching to an active vac system that I have ZERO volume problems, The vacuum pulls fluid into the limb to fill the space in the socket and keeps it there, the same amount all day long till you turn of the system or take off your leg. Now this last week I have not been using my Vacuum (i have a few too many holes in my sleeve from crawling around on the rocks fixing stuff but this is my fault and the fact that I only had one good sleeve at the time) I'm having all kinds of volume issues. Since I don't have the vacuum holding the fluid in my limb I've been adding socks constantly and now i'm up to 5 ply by the end of the day and this has ONLY started since not turning on my vac pump 4 days ago. I sure hope my new sleeves show up soon :biggrin:

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How do you think your vacuum system would hold up in a rather sandy, dusty area?

I haven't even considered the vacuum systems because I figured that I would probably trash it just carrying hay to the horses...Life on the farm is rather hard on about anything.. dusty, dirty, lots of sharp edges with equipment, etc....

Now, if they could make the vacuum sleeve out of something similar to a bullet proof vest, I might have it made... :tongue:

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I think you might be surprised at how well it would work for you. I can't imagine ever going back to a pin system. And you are SO active I would think it would work even better for you. To each his own, of course, but don't rule it out!

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How do you think your vacuum system would hold up in a rather sandy, dusty area?

I haven't even considered the vacuum systems because I figured that I would probably trash it just carrying hay to the horses...Life on the farm is rather hard on about anything.. dusty, dirty, lots of sharp edges with equipment, etc....

Now, if they could make the vacuum sleeve out of something similar to a bullet proof vest, I might have it made... :tongue:

For me I am not and do not worry about dust and dirt on the vacuum pump itself ( I have the limblogic VS from OWW) but water does worry me, the unit is water resistant but for the pump that's the only thing I can see hurting it. I live in the country, it's not a farm but it's all dirt, grass, weeds and gopher holes with no pavement or concrete anywhere in site. I have to mow and weedeat acres and acres and I usually do it in shorts and I've yet to have any issues with grit or grim getting into the pump and my sleeve holds up fine as long as I keep from crawling around on my hands and knees in the gravel and sticks fixing stuff. The Vac unit sucks the air from inside the socket ONLY so if you can keep the inside of your socket clean (pretty easy with a sleeve on) then there's not much of an issue gunkin up the vac pump. The sleeve that seal the top of the socket is truely the weak link in the system and I've found the Otto Bock Derma ProFlex sleeve very tough yet sheer and flexable at the sametime (just don't crawl around on gravel with it hehe). With the Limblogic unit there are no hoses to catch on stuff or pull out and leak, the unit is about as big as a hockey puck (it was the exact same size as the locking part on my pin system so it didn't change my build height at all) and isn't very heavy, the battery life for me is 2-3 days as long as I don't have leaks in my sleeve and it will go a full day even if I do have a couple small holes. What I have gained by switching to a vac system has been all positives with very few negatives. :biggrin:

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Defintely give it to you if you are weed eating in shorts!!! Basically, I live in shorts from 50 degree on.. but then again, I think most bk's do from all of them that I have met..We have about 1 1/2 miles of fence to weed eat, plus a farm yard that is about 4 acres..with barn, machine shed, etc going on, plus the farm machinery and then the house and all..... well... you get the picture....

I think the build height may be a problem.... I'm rather short... even dear Miss Marcia is taller than I am... :laugh: I just can't see not trashing the leg with the hay, though...It's hard enough on the skin...

Lately, I've been considering using a peg leg for a water leg...

Thanks for the info Tigertatt.

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You can use what they call a 'gator' to help protect the sleeve from the socket rim. You can also glue a thin leather strip around the socket rim to protect the sleeve. There are many ways to help protect the sleeve, but like Tiger said, it is the weakest link to a vacuum system.

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I'm rather short... even dear Miss Marcia is taller than I am... :laugh:

You are a short stack, for sure :tongue: but I don't see that as a problem!

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I'm rather short... even dear Miss Marcia is taller than I am... :laugh:

You are a short stack, for sure :tongue: but I don't see that as a problem!

At last check, you are both taller than I am !!!

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I'm rather short... even dear Miss Marcia is taller than I am... :laugh:

You are a short stack, for sure :tongue: but I don't see that as a problem!

At last check, you are both taller than I am !!!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I'm rather short... even dear Miss Marcia is taller than I am... :laugh:

You are a short stack, for sure :tongue: but I don't see that as a problem!

At last check, you are both taller than I am !!!

Well....I wasn't gonna bring it up .... :tongue:

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I'm rather short... even dear Miss Marcia is taller than I am... :laugh:

You are a short stack, for sure :tongue: but I don't see that as a problem!

At last check, you are both taller than I am !!!

Well....I wasn't gonna bring it up .... :tongue:

Yall go ahead and keep looking down on me.......

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How do you think your vacuum system would hold up in a rather sandy, dusty area?

I haven't even considered the vacuum systems because I figured that I would probably trash it just carrying hay to the horses...Life on the farm is rather hard on about anything.. dusty, dirty, lots of sharp edges with equipment, etc....

Now, if they could make the vacuum sleeve out of something similar to a bullet proof vest, I might have it made... :tongue:

For me I am not and do not worry about dust and dirt on the vacuum pump itself ( I have the limblogic VS from OWW) but water does worry me, the unit is water resistant but for the pump that's the only thing I can see hurting it. I live in the country, it's not a farm but it's all dirt, grass, weeds and gopher holes with no pavement or concrete anywhere in site. I have to mow and weedeat acres and acres and I usually do it in shorts and I've yet to have any issues with grit or grim getting into the pump and my sleeve holds up fine as long as I keep from crawling around on my hands and knees in the gravel and sticks fixing stuff. The Vac unit sucks the air from inside the socket ONLY so if you can keep the inside of your socket clean (pretty easy with a sleeve on) then there's not much of an issue gunkin up the vac pump. The sleeve that seal the top of the socket is truely the weak link in the system and I've found the Otto Bock Derma ProFlex sleeve very tough yet sheer and flexable at the sametime (just don't crawl around on gravel with it hehe). With the Limblogic unit there are no hoses to catch on stuff or pull out and leak, the unit is about as big as a hockey puck (it was the exact same size as the locking part on my pin system so it didn't change my build height at all) and isn't very heavy, the battery life for me is 2-3 days as long as I don't have leaks in my sleeve and it will go a full day even if I do have a couple small holes. What I have gained by switching to a vac system has been all positives with very few negatives. :biggrin:

Hi Tigertatt! I have some questions for you if you don't mind. I am bilateral below knee and was first in the pin lock system for the first 2 years and now have been put in the vacuum Limb Logic system by OWW. I have had alot of problems first with the liners and having to turn them down at the top, then with the sleeves that OWW suggested go with the vacuum legs. I don't know if it's because I'm bilateral or not, but OWW sleeves are very heavy duty which make it very difficult to bend your knees. I'm talking simple things like going up and down stairs and even getting into the car. I have a conference call set up with the engineers at OWW between them and my leg guy to see what can be done, hopefully this week. I can't use these legs if I can't bend my knees. They have promised to make the liner thinner at the top so that it doesn't have to be folded down (most other vacuum systems don't make this a necessity, so OWW needs to get on the ball with that one). I'm not sure if you are bilateral or not, but do you think the Otto Bock sleeve would work for a bilateral below knee? Flexible enough? My leg guy tried various other sleeves, but not the Otto Bock one and the vacuum went on and off all day long when I was at work.. I'm fresh out of ideas, have been back and forth to the leg guys 1 million times (just kidding, just seems that way),so I'm wondering what you think?? Thank you for your help!

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How do you think your vacuum system would hold up in a rather sandy, dusty area?

I haven't even considered the vacuum systems because I figured that I would probably trash it just carrying hay to the horses...Life on the farm is rather hard on about anything.. dusty, dirty, lots of sharp edges with equipment, etc....

Now, if they could make the vacuum sleeve out of something similar to a bullet proof vest, I might have it made... :tongue:

For me I am not and do not worry about dust and dirt on the vacuum pump itself ( I have the limblogic VS from OWW) but water does worry me, the unit is water resistant but for the pump that's the only thing I can see hurting it. I live in the country, it's not a farm but it's all dirt, grass, weeds and gopher holes with no pavement or concrete anywhere in site. I have to mow and weedeat acres and acres and I usually do it in shorts and I've yet to have any issues with grit or grim getting into the pump and my sleeve holds up fine as long as I keep from crawling around on my hands and knees in the gravel and sticks fixing stuff. The Vac unit sucks the air from inside the socket ONLY so if you can keep the inside of your socket clean (pretty easy with a sleeve on) then there's not much of an issue gunkin up the vac pump. The sleeve that seal the top of the socket is truely the weak link in the system and I've found the Otto Bock Derma ProFlex sleeve very tough yet sheer and flexable at the sametime (just don't crawl around on gravel with it hehe). With the Limblogic unit there are no hoses to catch on stuff or pull out and leak, the unit is about as big as a hockey puck (it was the exact same size as the locking part on my pin system so it didn't change my build height at all) and isn't very heavy, the battery life for me is 2-3 days as long as I don't have leaks in my sleeve and it will go a full day even if I do have a couple small holes. What I have gained by switching to a vac system has been all positives with very few negatives. :biggrin:

Hi Tigertatt! I have some questions for you if you don't mind. I am bilateral below knee and was first in the pin lock system for the first 2 years and now have been put in the vacuum Limb Logic system by OWW. I have had alot of problems first with the liners and having to turn them down at the top, then with the sleeves that OWW suggested go with the vacuum legs. I don't know if it's because I'm bilateral or not, but OWW sleeves are very heavy duty which make it very difficult to bend your knees. I'm talking simple things like going up and down stairs and even getting into the car. I have a conference call set up with the engineers at OWW between them and my leg guy to see what can be done, hopefully this week. I can't use these legs if I can't bend my knees. They have promised to make the liner thinner at the top so that it doesn't have to be folded down (most other vacuum systems don't make this a necessity, so OWW needs to get on the ball with that one). I'm not sure if you are bilateral or not, but do you think the Otto Bock sleeve would work for a bilateral below knee? Flexible enough? My leg guy tried various other sleeves, but not the Otto Bock one and the vacuum went on and off all day long when I was at work.. I'm fresh out of ideas, have been back and forth to the leg guys 1 million times (just kidding, just seems that way),so I'm wondering what you think?? Thank you for your help!

I never did like the way OWW said to roll down the top of liner so I did some shopping and ordered the ALPS - SPI sleeve it has fabric on the part that goes into the socket but none up above the socket part, just pure silicone and this allows the outer sleeve the same seal as if you roll over the top of the OWW sleeve. I've always had great luck with ALPS liners in the past so this was an easy choice for me. I would recommend getting the ALPS liner that tapers from 6mm in the socket to 3mm behind the knee and abvoe -- PSI-XX-6/3 Proximal Seal Interface, 6mm to 3mm tapered, http://www.easyliner.com/PSI.aspx this will allow the least amount of liner behind your knee and NONE of the folding over crap OWW wants you to do. For the Sleeve I used the OWW sleeves they recommend to use with the Limblogic and found the 3 i had were TOTAL JUNK (sorry OWW) it looks like such a good sleeve with a good concept but build and design on them is just TERRIBLE! I switched over to the OTTO BOCK -- Derma ProFLex sleeve and it's 1000 times better. much stonger yet sheer at the same time and the best part MORE flexable than the OWW sleeves. http://www.ottobockus.com/cps/rde/xchg/ob_...s.xsl/1760.html This combo of sleeve/liner has allowed for less material behind my knee than my pin system I had did so even with adding the outer sleeve i have better knee bend now than when i was in the pin system.

Just remember, everyone wants to sell you their product so they will always tell you that you "need" to use their product or that theirs is the best. The sad thing is that some prosthetist get kick backs and benifits for pushing one brand over the other so you always need to do your homework and go with what YOU think is the best for you because in the end only YOU can know what's best for your situation.

Oh almost forgot -- I had big issues with my socket eating holes though my sleeves at first, with the good advice from others here I got a "gaitor" from Otto Bock when I ordered my Otto Bock sleeves. The "gaitor" is just a lycra sleeve (very thin) with a slick coating on it that I taped in place just below the top of the socket and pull up over the top of the socket onto the top of liner, this allows the Sleeve to to seal on to it and the liner but won't let the top edge of the socket cut holes through my liner. Without it I always had pin holes in my sleeve letting the pump run constatly. This brings me to something else -- myself and 2 others that I know of have had issues with leaks in the system between the pump and where it connects to the socket. the O-ring set up OWW uses to seal here is of poor design. Best way to test if you also have this leak is to just tape up the hole in the bottom of your socket (electrical tape is best) if the pump keeps running after you tape up the hole in the bottom of your socket then YES you also have this leak. -- OWW now is sending out a silicone to fix this problem. I spent 3 days hunting down this leak, i thought it was my sleeve for the longest time but once i put a new sleeve on that i knew had no holes in it and the pump still ran, I knew it was something else. It is a simple fix , don't even have to take apart the socket just add silicone and let dry ( I used the RTV I had in my toolbox but OWW wants to sell their own RTV for more than the 3 bucks a tube I pay for it).

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Tigertatt - this is exactly the information I needed, thank you so much! I was beginning to think I was losing my freaking mind and that I was expecting too much. I know that I can't go back to exactly where I was before, but once I learned how to walk again, there was no stopping me, and I'm not settling for this pain anymore because I have a prosthetist who is not up on the times and does not know enough to stand up to the engineers and ask the right questions and argue for what is right. Those $36,000 legs have been sitting in the leg guys office for months because they can't figure out what to do, meanwhile they have all been paid and I'm banging around in old legs. Thank you again, I will take this information with me to the conference call.

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Tigertatt - this is exactly the information I needed, thank you so much! I was beginning to think I was losing my freaking mind and that I was expecting too much. I know that I can't go back to exactly where I was before, but once I learned how to walk again, there was no stopping me, and I'm not settling for this pain anymore because I have a prosthetist who is not up on the times and does not know enough to stand up to the engineers and ask the right questions and argue for what is right. Those $36,000 legs have been sitting in the leg guys office for months because they can't figure out what to do, meanwhile they have all been paid and I'm banging around in old legs. Thank you again, I will take this information with me to the conference call.

There is something better, Flip. I think we both know what that is. I hate to see you still messing around with this when you are obviously getting no where. This OWW system seems to be more trouble than it's worth. You can move forward. I hope soon!

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Tigertatt - this is exactly the information I needed, thank you so much! I was beginning to think I was losing my freaking mind and that I was expecting too much. I know that I can't go back to exactly where I was before, but once I learned how to walk again, there was no stopping me, and I'm not settling for this pain anymore because I have a prosthetist who is not up on the times and does not know enough to stand up to the engineers and ask the right questions and argue for what is right. Those $36,000 legs have been sitting in the leg guys office for months because they can't figure out what to do, meanwhile they have all been paid and I'm banging around in old legs. Thank you again, I will take this information with me to the conference call.

There is something better, Flip. I think we both know what that is. I hate to see you still messing around with this when you are obviously getting no where. This OWW system seems to be more trouble than it's worth. You can move forward. I hope soon!

If you follow the OWW "rules" and actually treat it as an entire OWW system then YES it's trouble. If you have a decent prosthetist and do your homework and design the system out of the best parts for your situation and buy each part as an individual item (much like tires that come on a car aren't always the best for the conditions you drive in) then your final product will also be solid. The Limblogic pump is a well built unit, your socket is as good or bad as your prosthetist, as i posted above there are many many different sleeves and liners and all of them can be used in any combination that best suits your situation, If you accept the word of your prosthetist and sign for a prosthesis that isn't completely up to your needs or standards well that's on you. --- IF -- more of us are willing to come forward and share our TRUE OPINIONS and experiences of these products and stop being politically correct and affraid to say a product SUCKS (in your opinion) then we all stand to win. I don't see that Flip has as much a problem with her legs as she does with her prosthetist and OWW and hopefully now also has the tools and knowledge to fix the "problems".

I've been on this forum for over 3 years now and I joined trying to find out information about the "best" products to use figuring the "best" people to ask would be amputees themselves, boy was I wayyy wrong on that one. Out of the thousands of amputees on this and other forums I can truely say only 3 have given me any "good" information based on their real life experiences and opinions. So since the day amputation was an option for me, I've been studying and researching prosthetic parts, I've asked 100's if not 1000's of questions to other amputees and prosthetists from all around the world and I can honestly say less than 3% of them have had solid honest answers and opinions. For some reason most of us have just accepted the line "we are all different" and some go one step further and preach the "different" aspect. If every single prosthetic part were custom made just for me then I could accept that as an answer but they AREN'T. Feet, Knees, Liners, Sleeves, Vaccums, pin locks, ect ect ... all come off a prefab shelf before it ships to your prosthetist who does nothing more than pick a size and weight that meets your needs (much like picking a shoe size). So this is the reason I try to post as much information backed by personal experiences that I can and I never have an issue giving you my person opinion of a product. If it's a product that I have not personally used or seen in action I will try and find someone that does and point you in their dirrection.

In the past few months I have seen more people comming out of the shadows and offering up more honest opinions (yes there's a few of you that have always stood tall on your soapbox and I always admire/thank you for that) and we are now seeing more people asking more questions about products thus inspiring others to question if the system they are in is the "best" for them. This is a fantastic change in my opinion, for the more we all know and share with each other the more comfortable we can be. So mmarie if there is "something better" than PLEASE share it with all of us so that we all my prosper from it. :biggrin:

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