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Harmony vs LimbLogic

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Hi Again,

I'm considering either Harmony or LimbLogic vacuum systems. I'm a left BKA. My amputation was in 1976 from a lawn mower. I'm a very active mother and part time nurse anesthetist. I am 36 years old. I have tried the pin/shuttle lock system twice and was unable to tolerate the pulling sensation over the distal part of my leg. I would love to hear first hand experiences with both systems as I continue to research the two systems.

THANKS!!!

Karla :biggrin:

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Which Harmony are you talking about -- the original manual pump system that crates vacuum as you walk or the new E-Pulse unit?

If you are compairing the E-pulse to the Limblogic the only real issue here is how much room do you have. the Harmony system can mount any where on the prosthetic and is a good system for those that have room restrictions. If you use the limblogic system the unit mounts between the socket and foot (or knee in AK's) and can create room and spacing issues (though in a pin system the limblogic unit takes up about the same space as the pin lock portion in the socket does).

From what I know and have heard is that the E-pulse system is noisy and does have some issues that have yet to be resolved by Otto Bock and connects to the socket via a hose , I personally have issues with stuff hanging off my socket that I could catch on something and tear off so I'm using the Limblogic system that is well designed fairly quiet and has an added bonus of being waterproof down to 10 feet something the E-pulse is not.

The original harmony is a fairly solid unit with little that can go wrong with it and has no need for batteries or a need to be charged every few days, it is heavy though.

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Which Harmony are you talking about -- the original manual pump system that crates vacuum as you walk or the new E-Pulse unit?

If you are compairing the E-pulse to the Limblogic the only real issue here is how much room do you have. the Harmony system can mount any where on the prosthetic and is a good system for those that have room restrictions. If you use the limblogic system the unit mounts between the socket and foot (or knee in AK's) and can create room and spacing issues (though in a pin system the limblogic unit takes up about the same space as the pin lock portion in the socket does).

From what I know and have heard is that the E-pulse system is noisy and does have some issues that have yet to be resolved by Otto Bock and connects to the socket via a hose , I personally have issues with stuff hanging off my socket that I could catch on something and tear off so I'm using the Limblogic system that is well designed fairly quiet and has an added bonus of being waterproof down to 10 feet something the E-pulse is not.

The original harmony is a fairly solid unit with little that can go wrong with it and has no need for batteries or a need to be charged every few days, it is heavy though.

Thanks, Tigertatt!

I guess since I am pretty short (around 5'1"), I'll be restricted with what can fit between the socket and foot. I'm leaning toward the LimbLogic. The noise does concern me though.

I appreciate your input!

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The only thing in addition to what Tiger said is the Limblogic is alot less weight than the Harmony system. If you have the room for the Limblogic then you might take the weight difference into consideration.

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However, due to the nature of vacuum, if you have a well-fitting socket, you will not feel the weight of the mechanical harmony pump. A vacuum system means that your leg has complete contact and is not dragging on only a couple points of your stump.

The pump itself does weigh more, but you will not feel the weight if you have a good socket.

The harmony, e-pulse, and limblogic are all very good systems. If your prosthetist is certified and knows what he/she is doing with the socket, all of those options should be good and you will most likely be happier than when you were in a pin system.

Good luck on your choice. Vacuum suspension is the best, in my opinion.

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I am a LBK and use the Harmony E-Pulse for a year now. I have a residual limb below the knee of 6 inchs. Yes, It is noisy and you have air lines running out of the socket. I solved that problem using velcro straps made for stereo equipment to hold it to the pylon. The liner I use is custom made of ureathane. Hopes this helps.

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I've just started the fitting process for the Harmony manual vacuum system. Last week there was a seminar here with two folks from Otto Bock and two amputees who had the system, and I'm convinced enough to spend my own money on it. Both users had had the system for about a month and both were very enthusiastic about it. They said the attachment was so good that the extra weight made absolutely no difference. I picked up one of the legs and compared it to my pin-lock leg with a Ceterus foot and couldn't tell any real weight difference anyway.

Two disadvantages of the electric pumps for me were the random noise when pumping and the need to re-charge the batteries every other night or so. Jerry, the Otto Bock guy who has been a BK amputee for 40 years, was using the manual version and said that vacuum is vacuum, he liked the simplicity and durability of the manual unit.

Like you, Karla, the skin stretching of a pin-lock system limited the amount of walking I could do. My goal is to be able to walk a golf course again, and I wasn't getting there. I watched a video of the fitting process (at http://www.alloro.biz/case_studies/otto-bock-harmony-01.htm) and at the end, the prosthetist was told to have the client "walk around for three hours" to see how things were working. There's no way I can walk for three hours on what I've got now, so this has got to be a big improvement.

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I've just started the fitting process for the Harmony manual vacuum system. Last week there was a seminar here with two folks from Otto Bock and two amputees who had the system, and I'm convinced enough to spend my own money on it. Both users had had the system for about a month and both were very enthusiastic about it. They said the attachment was so good that the extra weight made absolutely no difference. I picked up one of the legs and compared it to my pin-lock leg with a Ceterus foot and couldn't tell any real weight difference anyway.

Two disadvantages of the electric pumps for me were the random noise when pumping and the need to re-charge the batteries every other night or so. Jerry, the Otto Bock guy who has been a BK amputee for 40 years, was using the manual version and said that vacuum is vacuum, he liked the simplicity and durability of the manual unit.

Like you, Karla, the skin stretching of a pin-lock system limited the amount of walking I could do. My goal is to be able to walk a golf course again, and I wasn't getting there. I watched a video of the fitting process (at http://www.alloro.biz/case_studies/otto-bock-harmony-01.htm) and at the end, the prosthetist was told to have the client "walk around for three hours" to see how things were working. There's no way I can walk for three hours on what I've got now, so this has got to be a big improvement.

Hi Tom,

I'm very excited for you. I cannot wait to hear how you like the manual Harmony system! Like you I don't think I would be happy hearing the electric pump and also having to charge it at night. Too much work! Please let me know how it goes.

Good LUCK!!!

Karla

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Well, I just ordered the LimbLogic system after 4+ years of wearing the manual Harmony, so I'll so be able to give a report soon!

When the manual Harmony system works, it's great. However, that's not all the time. Additionally, I drive and fly with my legs, and, after a while, the Harmony will lose vacuum, no matter how tight the "seal" is. With a relatively short residual BK limb, this makes my leg "loose", which makes operating the pedals somewhat awkward.

My only two concerns with LimbLogic are:

1) noise, though I understand if they place the suction line inside the foot the noise is greatly reduced.

2) if you get a pinhole leak in the sleeve, it will run constantly, unless you shut it off, and then you'll have zero vacuum when walking (with the manual Harmony you at least get a "pump" on each step, even it the vacuum does quickly bleed off).

Charging each night isn't a big deal for me, as I already have to charge the C-leg (and you only forget to do that ONCE!).

I'm anxious to see how it goes. I would like to get back into automobile racing, but have been afraid to because, if my BK leg is loose (no vacuum), it is difficult for me to brake quickly during high lateral (turning) g forces. I'm hoping the LimbLogic system will provide enough continous support to keep the leg "glued" to my residual limb.

Regardless, when my Harmony system is working correctly, the prosthetic really feels like an extension of my real leg.

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2) if you get a pinhole leak in the sleeve, it will run constantly, unless you shut it off, and then you'll have zero vacuum when walking (with the manual Harmony you at least get a "pump" on each step, even it the vacuum does quickly bleed off).

People carry a tube of super glue with them to make pinhole repairs.

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I would stay away - very far away - from the Otto Bock Harmony system. I have been in the Harmony HD system for about 3 years now. My most recent issue is that my pump has gone out and Otto Bock tells my prosthestis that there are ten people in front of me and it will be at least 10 days before I can get a loaner pump in order to send my pump into them to get it repaired (very expensive). This is insane, their customer service is the worst. I have had nothing but problems with this leg. Their inner liners (goes next to your skin) tear very very easily. I had 3 go out in less than a month - my prosthestist told them it was defective manufactiuring. I finally found a prohstestist in San Francisco that could make me a very durable custom liner - tha tproblem solved no thanks to Otto Bock. Their outer liners are ok, but the one from Alps works better. If the system were durable it would be ok. Pretty embarrising to have your leg lose suction and try to fall off (can sounds like farts when you walk on one that is not keeping suction).

Anyway, I am getting ready to have a new one made and I think I'm going with the one from Ohio Willow (Limblogic). I'm not sure yet, I have sent the company questions a couple of times and have yet to receive a reply. I'm not going to live through the Otto Bock experiance again.

I'm like most of you - I just want to have a leg that wil allow me to go through my day as well as possible. Otto Bock does not give me this.

Good luck no matter which one you chose (I know the Limblogic is now water proof).

Thanks!

:biggrin:

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UPDATE ... Ohio Willow Wood sent me answers to all my questions. Yesterday, my prosthestist called otto Bock to find out about getting me a loaner pump while they repaired my existing HD Harmony pump. A week and a half ago we were told that I had 10 people in front of me, now I have 9...Great custome rservice. My leg guy was not happy. Well Ohio Willow wood told me they send out loaners within 24 hours, wish I had one of their units instead of this OItto Trash... I asked my prosthestist to put me in for a new Limblogic unit from Ohio Willow wood. He is ordering the new unit and I am getting casted Monday.. Dont settle for poor customer service / poor products ... Stay away from Otto Bock.

Thanks.

I would stay away - very far away - from the Otto Bock Harmony system. I have been in the Harmony HD system for about 3 years now. My most recent issue is that my pump has gone out and Otto Bock tells my prosthestis that there are ten people in front of me and it will be at least 10 days before I can get a loaner pump in order to send my pump into them to get it repaired (very expensive). This is insane, their customer service is the worst. I have had nothing but problems with this leg. Their inner liners (goes next to your skin) tear very very easily. I had 3 go out in less than a month - my prosthestist told them it was defective manufactiuring. I finally found a prohstestist in San Francisco that could make me a very durable custom liner - tha tproblem solved no thanks to Otto Bock. Their outer liners are ok, but the one from Alps works better. If the system were durable it would be ok. Pretty embarrising to have your leg lose suction and try to fall off (can sounds like farts when you walk on one that is not keeping suction).

Anyway, I am getting ready to have a new one made and I think I'm going with the one from Ohio Willow (Limblogic). I'm not sure yet, I have sent the company questions a couple of times and have yet to receive a reply. I'm not going to live through the Otto Bock experiance again.

I'm like most of you - I just want to have a leg that wil allow me to go through my day as well as possible. Otto Bock does not give me this.

Good luck no matter which one you chose (I know the Limblogic is now water proof).

Thanks!

:biggrin:

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UPDATE ... Ohio Willow Wood sent me answers to all my questions. Yesterday, my prosthestist called otto Bock to find out about getting me a loaner pump while they repaired my existing HD Harmony pump. A week and a half ago we were told that I had 10 people in front of me, now I have 9...Great custome rservice. My leg guy was not happy. Well Ohio Willow wood told me they send out loaners within 24 hours, wish I had one of their units instead of this OItto Trash... I asked my prosthestist to put me in for a new Limblogic unit from Ohio Willow wood. He is ordering the new unit and I am getting casted Monday.. Dont settle for poor customer service / poor products ... Stay away from Otto Bock.

Thanks.

I would stay away - very far away - from the Otto Bock Harmony system. I have been in the Harmony HD system for about 3 years now. My most recent issue is that my pump has gone out and Otto Bock tells my prosthestis that there are ten people in front of me and it will be at least 10 days before I can get a loaner pump in order to send my pump into them to get it repaired (very expensive). This is insane, their customer service is the worst. I have had nothing but problems with this leg. Their inner liners (goes next to your skin) tear very very easily. I had 3 go out in less than a month - my prosthestist told them it was defective manufactiuring. I finally found a prohstestist in San Francisco that could make me a very durable custom liner - tha tproblem solved no thanks to Otto Bock. Their outer liners are ok, but the one from Alps works better. If the system were durable it would be ok. Pretty embarrising to have your leg lose suction and try to fall off (can sounds like farts when you walk on one that is not keeping suction).

Anyway, I am getting ready to have a new one made and I think I'm going with the one from Ohio Willow (Limblogic). I'm not sure yet, I have sent the company questions a couple of times and have yet to receive a reply. I'm not going to live through the Otto Bock experiance again.

I'm like most of you - I just want to have a leg that wil allow me to go through my day as well as possible. Otto Bock does not give me this.

Good luck no matter which one you chose (I know the Limblogic is now water proof).

Thanks!

:biggrin:

HI EVERYONE!

Thanks for all the input. I'm still trying to decide between Harmony and LimbLogic. I really don't like a noisy leg. I also am interested in the perfect stride foot. I'm not sure I would have enough room for Harmony + Perfect Stride foot as I am 5'2" at most. Can anyone who uses LimbLogic + Perfect Stride tell me about their system. I have been wearing the urethane Ottobock liner now for 11 years and am pretty happy with it. However they have recently been making them much thinner and I do not like that. I like the thicker urethane. My prosthetist just casted me last week for a custom urethane liner and I'm hoping it will be thicker. Thanks again for all information shared.

Karla

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HI EVERYONE!

Thanks for all the input. I'm still trying to decide between Harmony and LimbLogic. I really don't like a noisy leg. I also am interested in the perfect stride foot. I'm not sure I would have enough room for Harmony + Perfect Stride foot as I am 5'2" at most. Can anyone who uses LimbLogic + Perfect Stride tell me about their system. I have been wearing the urethane Ottobock liner now for 11 years and am pretty happy with it. However they have recently been making them much thinner and I do not like that. I like the thicker urethane. My prosthetist just casted me last week for a custom urethane liner and I'm hoping it will be thicker. Thanks again for all information shared.

Karla

I just got the Harmony manual system with a PerfectStride foot a month ago. Like you, I didn't want the noise of the pump running at an inappropriate moment, and the manual pump has been just fine so far. The PS foot is pretty tall, so space may be an issue for you. But just to get a comparison, I tried another foot, Bock's Trias+. The second I tried the leg on, I told the prosthetist to send back the PerfectStride. It's much heaver than the Trias, at least a pound, and I didn't see any increase in function that would justify that kind of weight.

Vacuum is vacuum, and whichever way you go, an elevated vacuum system is a magnitude better than my old liner with pin lock.

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HI EVERYONE!

Thanks for all the input. I'm still trying to decide between Harmony and LimbLogic. I really don't like a noisy leg. I also am interested in the perfect stride foot. I'm not sure I would have enough room for Harmony + Perfect Stride foot as I am 5'2" at most. Can anyone who uses LimbLogic + Perfect Stride tell me about their system. I have been wearing the urethane Ottobock liner now for 11 years and am pretty happy with it. However they have recently been making them much thinner and I do not like that. I like the thicker urethane. My prosthetist just casted me last week for a custom urethane liner and I'm hoping it will be thicker. Thanks again for all information shared.

Karla

I just got the Harmony manual system with a PerfectStride foot a month ago. Like you, I didn't want the noise of the pump running at an inappropriate moment, and the manual pump has been just fine so far. The PS foot is pretty tall, so space may be an issue for you. But just to get a comparison, I tried another foot, Bock's Trias+. The second I tried the leg on, I told the prosthetist to send back the PerfectStride. It's much heaver than the Trias, at least a pound, and I didn't see any increase in function that would justify that kind of weight.

Vacuum is vacuum, and whichever way you go, an elevated vacuum system is a magnitude better than my old liner with pin lock.

Hey Tom,

Thanks for your info! I've been reading a lot of negative stuff on here about Harmony. I'm glad you like it, because I think that's what I'm gonna try. I also appreciate the heads up on the PS foot's weight. I'll try the Trias and see if i like it.

THANKS!

Karla

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Karla, you are going to be absolutely amazed at how much better an elevated vacuum system is than the pin-lock. There are so many areas of improvement, many of them small yet significant, that I wish I'd had this kind of leg all along. It feels like the leg is a part of me, not just something hanging off the stump. I take a half-mile walk each day, something I couldn't do before without causing minor damage and having to recuperate for a bit. I can sit to drive a car or in a restaurant without getting uncomfortable after five minutes or so. I played golf both days this past weekend without getting completely wiped out.

But the best thing is that my stump is getting healthier. I've got skin grafts and had some folds on one side that would get stressed and bleed occasionally, and the vacuum is pulling those folds out, making it smoother with less to go wrong. I couldn't be happier with the way things are working out. If only my insurance had paid for it instead of me, it'd be perfect.

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Hi everyone, I've been absent for quite a while - hello again!

I've had a manual Harmony HD for over a year, with an OttoBock Axtion foot, and it's an absolutely wonderful leg; the security of the vacuum makes me feel so stable and very able, and while it is heavy in comparison, I never notice it when wearing the leg. I've had trouble with getting well-fitting sockets, and the sleeve and liner pinch my skin behind my knee quite painfully. This latter problem is the limiting factor in how long I can wear my Harmony. I've had no trouble with liner durability, but an occasional tumble or even knocking my leg against a hard surface has punctured sleeves, which are frustratingly vulnerable in this regard.

I also can't use my exercise bike with the Harmony system because of how much the sleeve and liner limit the degree to which I can comfortably bend my knee, so I'm getting a pin system leg just for exercise.

I also have an old Harmony socket mounted on a basic pylon, with a one-way vacuum valve on the end of the vacuum tube, which I wear with a Harmony liner and sleeve, and even without the Harmony pump, this leg is good for lower activity days, as it still feels quite secure. I still get pinching behind my knee, though, so I'm looking forward to seeing how I get on with the pin system - I went straight from supracondylar to Harmony, and haven't had a pin system before.

Best wishes, Roz.

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Hey Roz, have you tried OttoBock's DermaProflex sleeve? It is formed with a slight bend in it at the knee, so it allows more movement and less pinching. That is what I wear with my Harmony system and I will not use any other sleeve. I suggest asking your prosthetist about getting you one of these sleeves.

-Stubby

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Hi, Roz. Let me second Stubby's suggestion on the Otto Bock ProFlex sleeve, I ride a bike with it a lot and there's no problem with getting holes in it from bumps. It's very durable and flexible.

Bending your knee can be restricted by three things: the sleeve, the liner and the socket. If it's the socket, your prosthetist can cut it down some in the back, although they're reluctant to do that because they fear a loss of stability. Just insist. The ProFlex sleeve solves the sleeve part and I'm using a custom-made Bock liner which bunches up a bit but works well enough.

I hope the pin-lock system works for your bike riding, but I switched to an elevated vacuum socket from pin-lock and will never go back.

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Hi Stubby and ValkF6;

Thanks for your comments - I'll certainly ask about the ProFlex sleeve.

I'm on the NHS, so I don't want them to take away my old, comfortable 2nd leg (the one with the older Harmony socket and a vacuum valve instead of the pump), as it also has a cosmesis, and it's great for lower activity days too.

They'd also be happy about the lower cost, I'm sure!

However, I have been thinking of seeing Dorset Orthopaedics; are there any Dorset Harmony users out there?

RozM.

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